Stupid Cits vs. Own Stupidity

[axman]

So I'm reading Margot's and Savannah's thoughts after they've been exiled. And of course they are gripeing about all of the stupid citizens in the game or whatever. I have a bit of a beef with this. If you get exiled, I feel the majority of the blame falls on you for letting yourself get exiled and putting yourself in that poor of a position to begin with where the citizens suspect you badly enough to exile you. Of course, I don't think most people would ever admit that. But here they are sitting high and mighty looking down their noses at the citizens still in the game, stupid cits this or that. Nevermind that these people clearly didn't have a clue either so I'm not sure where they feel they are more intelligent than those in the game.

Now, with that said, there are some exceptions when being exiled is not necessarily that person's fault. I can think of a very small handful of people in the Spies games who weren't exiled because of their own poor play or decisions. Cuddles last season or Carly from season 5 because of some very ballsy spies comes to mind. But even myself last season being exiled at the end, I'll take a lot of the blame for that. I could've talked more with Yuri and Joshua, could've bitched out Andreas like I wanted to, and actually grown a pair and went right for Vlad's jugular, but I didn't. And as a result, my bad decisions and mistake came back to get me in the end. Just like these other people who are now exiled dropped the ball and should be blaming their own piss poor play and not the citizens for doing what they are supposed to be doing. Savannah wants to complain about dumb citizens? Helloooo? YOU were exiled with a citizen role and didn't do a damn thing about it.

I apologize for the rant, but does this boggle anyone else's mind? That the first thought is to blame the "stupid" people in the game and not your own "stupid" decisions you made to get yourself exiled?

P.S. I don't mean to paint everyone who gets exiled as "stupid" because they aren't, but I do think a lot of the blame falls on them with a bit of help from the spies in the game.

[Apollo]

I agree with this 100% (me agreeing with axman, that's a shocker). However, when you're eliminated I feel you have the right to bitch a little bit cause it does suck to be taken out of Spies, and usually said bitching is about the people who took you out.

You need to take responsibility for your actions though and it's your job to make people not suspect you, not the other way around. People made cases against both Savannah and Margot and they themselves didn't make the necessary moves to avoid the target... so, yeah.

I mean I fully understood why I was exiled as Faith because I felt that I'd even consider voting for myself if it wasn't for the fact I knew I was a citizen. However, I did my best to stop it that round but it was too little too late, and that's just how it goes sometimes.

I'm hoping it's just a temporary 'complaining about being eliminated thing' and they'll realize the citizens aren't stupid at all. At least yet.

[Sisqo]

Hmmmmmm... I gotta disagree with the Axeman and my gurl Tonisha.

I've been exiled three times now. In Spies 2, I think it was my own fault (coupled with some good detective work by Karl and Rodney) that got me exiled as the last spy in the final 3. So no complaints.

In Spies 4, I was VERY angry at the citizens who exiled me, but in the end I think it was a failure on my part as much as theirss because my character was wrong for the game. (As evidence for this, I'd present my character from Spies 6, which I still regard as my best ever Spies game.)

In Spies 7, I blame Andreas /Broderick entirely for my exile. (PS - not really - actually I think I was kinda hard on her, looking back over what she actually did that episode - not that I'd ever tell her that after her statement about me spreading blame like I spread STDs!) I do think, though, that if a certain specific set of circumstances hadn't come about - circumstances that were entirely outside of my control - I wouldn't have stood a chance of being exiled. Whereas once those circumstances did come about, I think I was doomed. So yeah... wasn't happy with that one. But hey, I didn't damage my side too much, and we still won.

HAVING SAID THAT...

In Spies 4 there was a spy called "Faizah". And what Faizah would do, just about every single episode, was to "dis" the exiled player. Before she started doing this, I was all ready to support her from the viewer's lounge even though I worked out fairly early on that she was probably a spy. Afterwards, it just got on my nerves more and more. Apart from being a transparently obvious spy tactic, it just came across as desperate and bitchy. At least to me.

There have been a LOT of citizens who've done things that have directly resulted in their exiles: Spies4Ralph, Spies4Hannah, Spies2Davoni and Spies6Gretchen in particular were blamed "after the fact" for their actions before exile. So was it right to exile them? All together now...

NO IT WAS NOT!!!

To me it was bloody obvious that Ralph wasn't a spy, and the fact that the citizens in that game weren't considering his actions in any logical light drove me nuts (on his behalf you understand). Gretchen, same, and I'm still perplexed as to why people thought there was such a strong case on her. Davoni, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have suspected - her connections with Leo alone would have ruled her out for me. Hannah, not so much - in fact I thought she was a spy as much as everyone else did - but I realized afterwards that there was evidence I'd forgotten about that could have exonerated her, despite the seeming "suspiciousness" of her actions.

My point here:

1) Everyone plays the game differently. If citizens can't make allowances for that when considering who to exile, they're bad citizens.

2) Spies will often blame citizens who were exiled for their own exiles because the dead can't answer back to justify themselves. Too often this kind of bulls--t has been accepted as the "truth" when actually it's anything but. I can testify to this myself using a LOT of examples from both Spies 2 and Spies 7.**

So are there things I think citizens can do to justifiably be blamed for their exiles?

I can only think of one - not playing the game. In other words, they're not spy-hunting, not looking for evidence, not making cases. If you don't give people any evidence to work with, you shouldn't be surprised when they assume you're being deliberately evasive and then exile you for it.

But other than that - no. If someone plays the game in an unorthodox fashion and gets exiled for it, it's not their fault. It's the fault of the citizens who exiled them.

_{**EDIT: Plus I've been a spy for longer than any other player in the series so far. I know better than anybody how easy this kind of stuff is to do.}

[tonisha]

Wow! You disagreed with me in the future!

I agree with this (topic). I think the best way to just do a set of Final Words is to be critical of how you as a player played the game, and how to do better, rather than bitching about the individuals who made the wrong decision. At the end of it all, it is YOUR actions that caused the other players to see you as scum, or allowed scum to take advantage of you.

I find the bitching-about-other-players attitude to be from a Survivor context wherein being voted are usually based on how well you are liked, and saying nasty things about other players would be perfectly acceptable because you have been betrayed or feelings were hurt. Survivor is one of those games where grudges after the game heavily exist, in TV and in the ORG world.

Hopefully, some of the Survivor see this beautiful thing about Mafia -- you can be voted out and not take things as personal. Rather, you can feel upset but see things as just being eliminated in a game, and then just try again.

[tonisha]

Jun 26, 2010 14:05:39 GMT -6 Sisqo said:

In Spies 4, I was VERY angry at the citizens who exiled me, but in the end I think it was a failure on my part as much as theirss because my character was wrong for the game. (As evidence for this, I'd present my character from Spies 6, which I still regard as my best ever Spies game.)

Martha was not really impressive... I'd exile anyone who would hint about eating baby rabbits.

[Sisqo]

Jun 26, 2010 14:32:50 GMT -6 tonisha said:

Jun 26, 2010 14:05:39 GMT -6 Sisqo said:

In Spies 4, I was VERY angry at the citizens who exiled me, but in the end I think it was a failure on my part as much as theirss because my character was wrong for the game. (As evidence for this, I'd present my character from Spies 6, which I still regard as my best ever Spies game.)

Martha was not really impressive... I'd exile anyone who would hint about eating baby rabbits.

Pish, Martha was the best character EVER. If this was truly "Spies dress-up" then she'd win hands-down. Unfortunately, it was "Spies", and she didn't stand a chance!

Also, "eating" baby rabbits? Read "sacrifice them to Satan".

[Judge Sam]

I kind of agree. But this is the day after they were Exiled, and both were pretty involved in the game, so I can understand the emotions. I am fortunate enough to have a game where people get emotionally involved and invested which is very good and understandable when people react emotionally to being kicked out of it.