[18:43] spies8broderick: Settings > Archives, select both options
[18:43] spies8mary: Hi.
[18:43] spies8claude: Yeah, I found it.
[18:43] spies8claude: That's certainly more convenient.
[18:43] spies8gertrude: Hey there, Mary!
[18:44] Spies8Awohali: Osiyo, Mary.
[18:44] spies8broderick: Hi Mary
[18:44] spies8broderick: I thought Chance posted the part which included you and Camilla, Claude
[18:45] spies8chance: has joined the chat
[18:45] spies8chance: 'sup guys. my internet seems to be working again.
[18:45] spies8broderick:
spies8.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dems&action=display&thread=329[18:45] spies8claude: The entire thing? Where at?
[18:45] spies8broderick: Hi Chance
[18:45] Spies8Awohali: Hello Chance.
[18:45] spies8chance: 'sup hal.
[18:45] spies8chance: 'sup brod.
[18:46] spies8gertrude: Hey there, Chance!
[18:46] spies8chance: 'sup gertie. :-)
[18:46] spies8chance: so have i missed anything interesting?
[18:46] Spies8Awohali: Of course.
[18:46] spies8claude: Not really.
[18:46] spies8chance: which is it?
[18:46] spies8chance: one of you guys is a liar and thus a spy. :-P
[18:47] Spies8Awohali: Claude is swimming with his computer.
[18:47] spies8chance: sounds like fun.
[18:47] spies8chance: please don't electrocute yourself, claude.
[18:48] spies8broderick: I just continued the transcript on to 'Claude is swimming with his computer'
[18:48] Spies8Awohali: That would be most unfortunate, unless of course he is a Spy.
[18:48] spies8chance: awesome, thanks brod. i'll read.
[18:48] spies8chance: oh, i don't want him to be electrocuted, hal. i just want to exile him. :-P
[18:49] spies8gertrude: Ha.
[18:49] spies8broderick: Wouldnt both involve death?
[18:49] spies8gertrude: That's... humane.
[18:49] Spies8Awohali: Simba was exiled from the lion pride, but he did not die.
[18:49] spies8broderick: A man was executed by firing squad in Idaho the other day at midnight.
[18:50] Spies8Awohali: That sounds... Interesting, to say the least.
[18:50] spies8broderick: He chose that over lethal injection.
[18:50] Spies8Awohali: If I were in his position, I would do the same.
[18:51] Spies8Awohali: I have an aversion to needles. Injection would be torture.
[18:51] spies8chance: i probably would too.
[18:51] spies8chance: i mean, with an injection they give you an alcohol swab first.
[18:51] spies8chance: ...an alcohol swab. really?
[18:51] Spies8Awohali: And there is always the Law Abiding Citizen scenario.
[18:51] spies8chance: 'just to prevent that last second infection.'
[18:51] Spies8Awohali: It would truly be a shame to be infected. You might experience discomfort in your grave.
[18:52] spies8broderick: Yes there is. Revenge from jail.
[18:52] spies8broderick: Perhaps it is a preemptive against zombiehood?
[18:53] Spies8Awohali: If so, then it is a wise precaution.
[18:53] spies8camilla: has left the chat
[18:53] spies8chance: um, bye, cam.
[18:53] spies8mary: I swear, I scare people away.
[18:54] spies8mary: I said hi to her in private and she logged off immediately.
[18:55] spies8broderick: Scary Mary?
[18:55] Spies8Awohali: I do not think that she was active, Manry.
[18:55] spies8mary: Manry is a new one.
[18:56] Spies8Awohali: I apologize, my typing skills are less than adequate on some days.
[18:57] spies8mary: I am going to try to get to know Lawrence and Gertrude in private for a moment.
[18:57] spies8chance: just for the record - i'm less suspicious of brod now.
[18:57] spies8mary: But I will be here.
[18:57] spies8chance: i posted in the votes thread.
[18:59] Spies8Awohali: Claude, could I ask you a question for clarification purposes?
[18:59] spies8claude: ?
[18:59] Spies8Awohali: How certain are you of Camilla being a Spy?
[19:00] spies8claude: Certain enough to accept being Exiled tomorrow if I'm wrong.
[19:00] Spies8Awohali: And how are you so certain so early?
[19:00] spies8claude: Note that I don't actually want to be exiled, I'm just trying to clarify how certain I am.
[19:00] spies8claude: She just acted so badly in response to me.
[19:01] spies8claude: This is kind of ironic, but she readily agreed with the initial points I made against Cory. Pretty much no one else did. I found this difference to be suspicious.
[19:02] spies8claude: I had/have mostly given up on those points, because everyone was like 'yeah it doesn't mean anything', and tried to move onto other points. So it seemed like she was just trying to get herself in somewhere easy.
[19:03] spies8mary: Camilla agreed to your Cory suspicions
[19:03] spies8mary: And you find that suspicious?
[19:03] spies8claude: I know that sounds strange.
[19:03] spies8claude: But for one, she agreed but was only '50/50' on him.
[19:03] spies8mary: Did she elaborate upon Cory?
[19:03] spies8mary: Has she met him?
[19:03] spies8claude: And for two, no one else agreed, so it was honestly strange to me when she did.
[19:04] spies8claude: What really did it for me, though, is how she responded to me in chat.
[19:04] spies8mary: You have a knack for making your accused look sympathetic, Claude.
[19:04] spies8claude: I have no idea what that means.
[19:04] spies8chance: question - did sam ever announce the number of spies?
[19:04] Spies8Awohali: I seem to recall reading the number "7" in one of his posts.
[19:05] spies8claude: Someone said he said it was 7.
[19:05] spies8chance: okay. maybe i missed it somewhere.
[19:05] spies8chance: who told you, claude?
[19:05] spies8claude: This is what Camilla had to say, re: Cory.
[19:05] spies8claude: Hmmmm
[19:05] spies8broderick: He said it in the opening chat
[19:05] spies8gertrude: Sam said it, yes.
[19:05] spies8chance: okay.
[19:05] spies8broderick: I believe shortly after he announced there was a doctor
[19:05] spies8claude: I don't remember, it was a couple of days ago.
[19:05] spies8chance: going back to reading.
[19:05] spies8gertrude: I think it's in the video too, ha.
[19:05] spies8claude: Here is what Camilla said re: Cory.:
[19:05] spies8claude: I'm 50/50 on Cory because he tends to hoard for info and not give any out, that and he can be kind of pushy. I'm not agreeing that the whole abrasiveness thing can be a factor, but something about him seems off.
[19:06] spies8claude: To me, that is not a 50/50. If it was, she would have detailed why she was only 50/50. Instead, she states a bunch of stuff she doesn't like, concludes with 'something about him seems off'(which is something scum like to say, because you really can't pin them to it), but is only 50/50
[19:06] spies8claude: It came across to me as very insincere
[19:06] spies8claude: So I asked her about the forum post
[19:07] spies8claude: This is her explanation:
[19:08] spies8claude: spies8camilla 6:07 pm
Those two statements actually compliment each other. I'm saying that you should lynch someone. I'm saying No Lynch is a waste in BOTH. Like I said, there are other alternatives than N/L
spies8chance 6:07 pm
example - lynch someone who's not participating/helping.
spies8claude 6:07 pm
I agree that they are somewhat similar, in sentiment.
spies8camilla 6:07 pm
If it means lynching a cit that is little to no help to you, then lynch them. in every single mafia game, the ghosts are always exiled first.
[19:09] spies8claude: The last bit really bugs me, because she directly disagreed with my notion that 'lynching someone you're not sure is a spy is better than a NL', while flatly stating that 'lynching a citizen that is little to no help to you' is fine.
[19:10] spies8chance: i'm not seeing where she disagrees with you.
[19:10] Spies8Awohali: I would actually agree that early on, if you're very unsure of an active participant, voting for and unhelpful one may be a better choice.
[19:11] spies8gertrude: I would, too.
[19:11] spies8claude: How are you not seeing it? In her OWN WORDS, she says that you should not vote for someone that you don't think is a Spy.
[19:12] spies8claude: Then she *directly* contradicts this in saying 'lynching a citizen that is little to no help to you is fine'
[19:12] spies8chance: "I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives."
[19:12] spies8claude: I don't really want to get stuck on this part again, honestly. I believe that she was just saying whatever she thought was the 'citizen' thing to say, at the time.
[19:12] spies8chance: this is the quote you're talking about, right?
[19:12] spies8claude: Yes.
[19:13] spies8chance: couldn't you interpret it to mean 'if you're not certain that the person is a spy, don't vote for them, vote for an inactive/unhelpful instead, don't vote no exile as it's a waste"?
[19:13] spies8claude: No.
[19:13] spies8chance: no?
[19:13] spies8claude: Because that is not what she said.
[19:13] spies8chance: only... it is.
[19:13] spies8mary: There seems to be a small change of opinion there in a short period of time, but it's pretty minor.
[19:13] spies8claude: The second statement was in response to YOU, not to me.
[19:13] spies8chance: you're ignoring the 'other alternatives' part of that quote.
[19:14] spies8claude: She didn't list any 'other alternatives'
[19:14] spies8chance: i'm not dealing with the second statement. i'm dealing with the first.
[19:14] spies8claude: Nor did she give even the slightest indication, in her second statement, that it was also in regard to the first.
[19:14] spies8chance: just because she didn't mention them doesn't mean she doesn't believe there are any.
[19:14] Spies8Awohali: Precisely, so it is possible that lynching an unhelpful citizen could fall under "other alternatives"
[19:14] spies8margot: has joined the chat
[19:14] spies8chance: it's clear that she does, otherwise she wouldn't have mentioned them.
[19:14] spies8chance: 'sup marge.
[19:14] Spies8Awohali: Osiyo, Margot.
[19:14] spies8margot: hey
[19:14] spies8claude: If she believed that was an alternative, why didn't she mention it?
[19:14] spies8mary: Hi.
[19:14] spies8claude: I think she was just using hollow words there, to say the right thing.
[19:14] spies8claude: Ugh.
[19:15] spies8chance: if she didn't believe there were other alternatives to 'no lynch', why would she have mentioned them?
[19:15] spies8mary: Claude, do you have other evidence that she has played to the crowd?
[19:15] spies8mary: Or was that a one-time thing?
[19:15] spies8claude: Because it's what a citizen would say.
[19:15] spies8chance: and how is that spyish, again?
[19:15] spies8claude: I believe the better question is, if she DID believe there were other alternatives, why didn't she include them?
[19:15] spies8mary: Because if it just happened once, it's easier to explain off as her being unclear or maybe changing her mind.
[19:15] spies8margot: um, who is the "she" that is being spoken of?
[19:15] spies8chance: i believe you'd be wrong. :-P
[19:15] spies8margot: just wanting clarification
[19:15] spies8chance: camilla.
[19:15] Spies8Awohali: Cl;aude, did you ask her what the other alternatives were?
[19:15] spies8claude: Are you kidding? A Spy wants nothing more than to appear as a Citizen. Come on, seriously.
[19:15] spies8margot: okay
[19:16] spies8claude: I asked her to explain the statements.
[19:16] spies8broderick: Hi Margot
[19:16] spies8chance: since when does that mean a citizen wants to look like a spy?
[19:16] Spies8Awohali: But you did not specify that?
[19:16] spies8margot: has left the chat
[19:16] spies8chance: newsflash - cits like to appear as cits too.
[19:16] spies8margot: has joined the chat
[19:16] spies8mary: I don't think she twisted her opinion that much to please the crowd there.
[19:16] spies8gertrude: Hey there, Margot!
[19:16] spies8claude: Citizens dont TRY to appear like citizens.
[19:16] spies8claude: They just do so.
[19:16] spies8claude: Spies go out of their way to LOOK like citizens, and sometimes mess up.
[19:16] spies8chance: also, claude - you could make the argument that she did explain the alternatives. in her second statement.
[19:16] spies8mary: You wondered if she was trying to contradict Claude but then agree with Chance, right?
[19:17] spies8claude: Which is what I believe happened here.
[19:17] spies8claude: Chance, I have to say, I hate, hate, hate that you are *again* making her defense for her. It is extremely bad play.
[19:17] spies8chance: okay, claude, if for some reason cam didn't mean 'lurkers/inactives' when she said 'other alternatives', what do you think she meant?
[19:17] spies8claude: But I suppose I'll save that for later.
[19:17] spies8claude: I have no idea what she meant.
[19:17] spies8claude: And she never bothered to clarify it.
[19:17] spies8chance: well, i'm not going to agree with you to make you feel better, clod.
[19:17] spies8chance: or you never bothered to ask.
[19:17] spies8claude: I don't care if you agree with me.
[19:18] spies8cory: Someone mind inviting Isaac?
[19:18] spies8claude: I asked her to explain. I said that I thought they were contradictory.
[19:18] spies8chance: invited.
[19:18] spies8mary: I tried.
[19:18] spies8chance: but like hal said - you never specified what you wanted her to explain.
[19:18] spies8chance: right?
[19:18] spies8claude: I said 'These posts are contradictory'. Please explain them.
[19:18] spies8chance: you just said 'could you explain these, i think they're contradictory'.
[19:18] spies8claude: First she said:
[19:19] spies8gertrude: Be right back, sorry.
[19:19] spies8chance: anyway, if you don't like me defending cam, then we should table the subject for now.
[19:19] spies8claude: Why?
[19:19] spies8claude: I have to relay this information somehow.
[19:19] spies8chance: because she's not here to defend herself.
[19:19] spies8chance: you've already relayed it more than once.
[19:19] spies8chance: now you're just trying to sway opinion.
[19:19] spies8claude: Pretty sure at least half of the people in here now were not around earlier.
[19:20] Spies8Awohali: I have not yet heard Claude's case against Camilla, so this is enlightening for me.
[19:20] spies8chance: 'zac still has a little circly thing by his name.
[19:20] spies8claude: Thanks.
[19:20] spies8chance: i think that means the invitation is loading?
[19:20] spies8cory: I walked in on the middle of it.
[19:20] spies8claude: I invited him, dunno.
[19:20] spies8cory: Something about deflection.
[19:20] spies8chance: they basically accused each other of deflecting onto each other.
[19:20] spies8chance: it's pretty clear if you look at the chat.
[19:20] spies8claude: Camilla tried to accuse me of 'deflecting attention from myself onto her'(and onto you).
[19:21] spies8claude: Which I didn't. 5 minutes had passed between the last time anyone had said anything about me until I started asking Camilla questions.
[19:21] spies8claude: Broderick was having a go at Chance at the time.
[19:21] spies8broderick:
spies8.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dems&action=display&thread=329[19:21] spies8broderick: The relevant chat
[19:22] spies8broderick: I dont believe I was 'having a go' at Chance
[19:22] spies8cory: Thanks. Will read over.
[19:22] spies8chance: i still can't help but consider it deflection, claude.
[19:22] spies8cory: I'm semi here. Lol.
[19:22] spies8chance: i mean, the last thing you say is a defense of yourself, and the very next is the beginnings of a case on cam?
[19:22] spies8chance: yes, five minutes passed. but i'm not sure what that means, exactly.
[19:23] spies8claude: 5 minutes is alot of conversation in this context.
[19:23] spies8claude: The topic of conversation had clearly changed from me, to you.
[19:23] spies8chance: it wasn't a lot, though. it was mostly me and brod bickering.
[19:23] spies8claude: Broderick had been asking me questions.
[19:23] spies8claude: Then he started in on you.
[19:23] spies8broderick: Bickering?
[19:23] spies8chance: yeah. remember the molehills conversatoin?
[19:23] spies8chance: *conversation
[19:24] spies8broderick: I wouldn't call that bickering.
[19:24] spies8chance: i would. :-P
[19:24] spies8chance: too serious to be joking, but too frivolous to be arguing. bickering.
[19:24] spies8chance: :-P
[19:24] spies8broderick: Fine. You were bickering at me, where as I was not
[19:25] spies8chance: yeah i'm not going to argue with you about this as it's pointless.
[19:25] spies8chance: claude - you never really responded to my second point against you.
[19:25] spies8claude: At any rate. I did not 'deflect' onto Camilla, as the topic of conversation had changed away from me.
[19:25] spies8chance: you basically just acknowledged it.
[19:25] spies8claude: Which point, the thing about Tina?
[19:25] spies8broderick: It is a misrepresentation
[19:25] spies8chance: i disagree.
[19:26] spies8chance: marge, are you here?
[19:26] spies8margot: has left the chat
[19:26] spies8chance: ....
[19:26] spies8claude: lol
[19:26] spies8chance: is it bad that i kind of want to vote her now? sigh.
[19:26] spies8claude: Vote her based on what, she's done nothing so far.
[19:26] spies8broderick: For what reason?
[19:27] spies8chance: it was a joke. lighten up.
[19:27] spies8chance: seriously.
[19:28] spies8broderick: Add a luagh next time
[19:28] spies8chance: hm, she says she didn't mean to disconnect.
[19:28] spies8margot: has joined the chat
[19:28] spies8chance: welcome back.
[19:28] spies8margot: thanks
[19:28] spies8margot: my aim is a piece of shit everyone, just so you know
[19:28] spies8chance: heh. :-P
[19:29] spies8claude: Here, how about this gem by Camilla:
[19:29] spies8claude: Okay one, I disagree with lynching someone who is clearly not a spy. I do agree with lynching someone that is entirely unhelpful and is feckless in the long run, regardless of alignment.
[19:29] spies8chance: so do you have any thoughts so far, marge?
[19:29] spies8claude: There is no consistency between those two statements. Absolutely none.
[19:29] spies8chance: i don't see a problem with them.
[19:29] spies8claude: lol
[19:29] spies8claude: come on, honestly?
[19:30] spies8margot: i'm rereading the chat on the board right now that was posted. trying to see what that sort of debate was earlier between you and claude
[19:30] spies8claude: In one sentence, she says 'I disagree with lynching someone who is clearly not a spy'. In the very next sentence, she says 'I agree with lynching someone who is unhelpful, regardless of alignment'
[19:30] spies8claude: But you see no contradiction? Really?
[19:30] spies8claude: Pretty sure the 'regardless of alignment' bit should be a big clue.
[19:30] spies8chance: not really.
[19:31] spies8chance: an unhelpful person could be a citizen or a spy, right?
[19:31] Spies8Awohali: ^
[19:31] spies8broderick: Is Isaac having AIM issues as well?
[19:31] spies8chance: apparently. i invited him, but nothing.
[19:32] spies8margot: i understand what camilla was trying to say with that second sentence. if someone, regardless if they are a spy or citizen, isn't being helpful, then she's saying it would be okay to vote for them
[19:32] spies8broderick: What would the definition of unhelpful be?
[19:33] Spies8Awohali: Someone who does not help?
[19:33] spies8margot: has left the chat
[19:33] spies8margot: has joined the chat
[19:33] spies8margot: which seems to me based on some of the posts in our forum would be me : /
[19:33] spies8claude: I get that.
[19:33] spies8claude: and that sentiment is fine.
[19:33] spies8chance: yeah... i don't know how much of that is your aim, though, since it's apparently crap.
[19:34] spies8claude: Except that immediately before it, she said 'I dsagree with lynching someone who is clearly not a Spy'
[19:34] spies8chance: i would like you to speak up more, though. :-)
[19:34] spies8lawrence: Wouldn't someone whi is clearly no a spy be helpful by definition?
[19:34] spies8claude: Not necessarily, and that is pretty obviously not what she meant, or she would have simply said as much and saved alot of grief.
[19:34] spies8broderick: Someone who is here, yet not here. Not contributing. Would that be unhelpful?
[19:34] spies8chance: yes, it would.
[19:34] spies8claude: In my estimation, she tried to work out a way to make both sentences make sense, but failed.
[19:35] spies8broderick: Someone who is here, contributing yet is not voting. Unhelpful?
[19:35] spies8chance: um, claude, the sentences make sense to everyone but you, so...
[19:35] spies8claude: Not voting doesn't make a person unhelpful.
[19:35] Spies8Awohali: But, Claude, wouldn't someone who is unhelpful not be a clear citizen?
[19:35] spies8claude: It just makes them cautious.
[19:35] spies8broderick: but then does that not place assumption that contributing = helpful?
[19:35] spies8broderick: What if their contribution is merely a facade? Has not meat to it?
[19:36] spies8chance: then if they're a spy, they're catchable.
[19:36] spies8chance: you can't do that with someone who's around but not talking.
[19:37] spies8gertrude: I'm bacl
[19:37] spies8gertrude: back*
[19:37] spies8broderick: Hi Gertie
[19:37] spies8margot: hey gertrude
[19:37] spies8chance: 'sup gertie.
[19:37] spies8gertrude: Hi!
[19:37] spies8gertrude: It looks like I'm back at a good time
[19:38] spies8gertrude: because I have something to say on the matter of whether or not to lynch unhelpful people, etc.
[19:38] spies8gertrude: Now, I'm only saying this because no one else has, it doesn't really reflect my views on the matter
[19:39] Spies8Awohali: The dramatic pause has ensued.
[19:39] spies8gertrude: But wouldn't someone who feels we need to lynch unhelpful people over active, yet suspicious people want to lynch Lilith? She's virtually not been here at all.
[19:40] spies8gertrude: And I realize that's a scheduling issue, but I'm someone shocked that people haven't mentioned her.
[19:40] spies8gertrude: somewhat*
[19:40] spies8gertrude: Dramatic pause unintentional.
[19:40] spies8chance: i wouldn't. lil hasn't even had the chance to prove whether or not she's going to be helpful. she specifically said she was going to be away.
[19:40] Spies8Awohali: I think in her case, she isn't inactive or unhelpful, but merely away. Since she has posted her being away ahead of time, she deserves a chance.
[19:40] spies8chance: exactly.
[19:41] spies8gertrude: Ok.
[19:41] spies8chance: someone like mags though, who's just been a character without saying anything and has since lapsed into not showing up...
[19:41] spies8gertrude: As long as we've addressed it.
[19:41] spies8chance: and marge, you're kind of in that category too until you start speaking up. sorry babe.
[19:42] spies8margot: i understand, no hard feelings there
[19:42] spies8margot: i'm trying to be more vocal
[19:42] spies8chance: understandable and commendable. :-)
[19:42] spies8margot: i'm just a mental and insular kind of person in general who likes to mull things over
[19:42] Spies8Awohali: Could I inquire to whom the nickname "Mags" applies to?
[19:42] spies8margot: Magalie
[19:42] spies8gertrude: Magalie, I believe her name is
[19:42] spies8mary: I will try to come back after dinner.
[19:42] spies8mary: Bye.
