a case on claude
Jun 23, 2010 20:35:29 GMT -6
Post by Chance on Jun 23, 2010 20:35:29 GMT -6
point a – claude’s ‘case’ against cory.
in the beginning, claude’s first major suspect was cory. his entire ‘case’ was built on the fact that cory was ‘abrasive’ and ‘pushed others for information while revealing nothing of his own’ (as seen here.) –
and on and on. watch those bolded ones, they’re important and i’ll come back to them later.
now, later on, claude does eventually drop all suspicion of cory. on the basis of the following statement:
which is odd in and of itself. but in any case, as we’ve seen, this early ‘case’ is nothing like his later ‘cases’ on cam and me, which leads me to believe he was never serious about the cory suspicion.
point b – claude’s double standards regarding tina
during the timing debacle, claude revealed that he was suspicious of tina for bringing up her suspicions of hal re: the no-exile comment privately to cory, instead of publically. apparently, he said this to brod in response to a comment by brod. claude points to this comment in order to say that he was suspicious of tina before i brought up the timing thing. the double standard here is this -
if claude is suspicious of tina for not bringing up her suspicions of hal publically, why then did he not bring his suspicions of tina up publically?
answer:
the bolded part is where claude admits it. no response, just an acknowledgement.
point c – claude twists cam’s words.
claude was being questioned in the chat for a while. he goes silent for a moment as brod and i begin bickering at one another, then poses a question to cam –
of note is that my last comment (at 6:05) is pretty clearly a dismissal of the subject at hand. sensing that discussion is about to come back to him, claude quickly takes control of the conversation –
this chat was extremely long to copy and paste. the bits where things have been taken out are irrelevant to the discussion, like people entering and being greeted, or making singular comments , or anything that doesn’t pertain to the discussion.
if you don’t want to read the entirety of the above chat, a recap – camilla responded to a statement made by claude and a statement made by myself. both statements regarded camilla’s stance on voting unhelpfuls/lurkers. claude tried extremely hard to make it look like camilla contradicted herself with her answers, but multiple people agreed that there was no contradiction.
point c add. – claude’s witchhunt
at this point, claude’s stance that camilla has contradicted herself has not gone over too well. however, there seems to be enough legitimate suspicion of camilla that claude begins to use the ‘witchhunt’ tactic against her.
the witchhunt tactic is one often used by baddies. in it, a baddie rapid-fire attacks an innocent, forcing them to defend themselves until they say something that can be considered baddie-like. oftentimes this tactic results in extreme frustration for the innocent on the other end of it (as indeed happened to camilla).
interestingly enough, when i (and multiple others) refute a point claude tried to make against cam, he blusters on through anyway -
this is partially relevant in that it indicates a pattern of behavior, but it’s also just amusing –
point d – claude lies
here is a portion of chat where claude tries to explain his suspicion of tina again.
he never responded, or even acknowledged that he was, in fact, in error here. claude never told me in a private conversation about his suspicion of tina. a minor point, but goes to character.
point e – claude twists my words, or tries to
true. however, this is what claude actually said -
now, to me, the tone in which this is stated implies that claude believed tina and cory to be spies for a time previous to me bringing up the timing issue. which still begs the question – why does claude think tina is a spy if his suspicion of her ‘wasn’t a big deal’?
and another example of claude trying to twist my words –
point f – claude saves his attacks on me for when i’m out of the chatroom
now, if i’m being petty here, someone please tell me, because i don’t mean to be. but here’s one example –
am I supposed to believe it’s a coincidence that, after being afk enough to not answer my question, claude comes back into the chat less than thirty seconds after i leave in order to put what i’ve been doing in a bad light?
point g – more double-standards
this is where the bolded comments from earlier come into play. remember that earlier, claude said that downplaying suspicions is a spyish trait. well, it seems to me, downplaying accusations and making fun of the person who is suspicious of you is exactly what claude has been doing re: me since after cam’s exile. also, this -
hasn’t claude been doing exactly that?
in the beginning, claude’s first major suspect was cory. his entire ‘case’ was built on the fact that cory was ‘abrasive’ and ‘pushed others for information while revealing nothing of his own’ (as seen here.) –
spies8claude: (10:21:54 PM)It's suspect that you pushed me(and apparently others) hard for information, while talking none about yourself. It's suspicious that you dodged joining this group, despite having been invited multiple times, until someone specifically asked you why you didn't join
spies8cory: (10:22:16 PM)And I didn't join because I hadn't received any of the invitations
spies8claude: (10:22:17 PM)And your sheer animosity towards various people is most likely just a smokescreen to keep people from trying to get anything out of you.
…
spies8claude: (10:29:53 PM)What could you possibly hope to gain, as a citizen, by treating cinnamyn the way you were?
spies8margot: (10:29:53 PM)Cory, what the hell is going on?
spies8cory: (10:30:05 PM)Amusement.
spies8cinnamyn: (10:30:07 PM)i will ask sum. cory in ur queschins wit' mary, did u find anythin' suspishis.?
spies8cory: (10:30:20 PM)Not really. She was a bit emo.
spies8cory: (10:30:27 PM)We didn't really talk much about the game.
spies8claude: (10:30:43 PM)Amusement is not a positive motive.
…
spies8claude: (10:37:37 PM)I didn't say that you 'avoided' questions. I said that all you did was push for information
spies8jasmine: (10:37:37 PM)Mary did talk about blood before she left earlier, Bloody mary fits. =)
spies8cory: (10:37:40 PM)If you guys are so worried about me avoiding questions then go ahead and ask me something tough
spies8jasmine: (10:37:52 PM)Who do you think is a spy right now?
spies8margot: (10:37:53 PM)okay
spies8broderick: (10:38:05 PM)Are we discussing who has and hasnt avoided questions?
spies8cory: (10:38:13 PM)Hal, though I'm less sure than before since Claude cleared my primary reason for suspecting him up
spies8claude: (10:38:16 PM)And many of the tactics that you've used in this conversation so far are tactics that spies use. Trying to downplay the accusations against you, for example.
…
spies8claude: (11:03:16 PM)Acting like a giant asshole is a great way to keep people from talking to you
…
spies8claude: (11:06:03 PM)Being pushy against someone you think is a spy does not equate to being a spy
spies8claude: (11:06:17 PM)Being pushy for no reason other than the sake of doing so implies ulterior motives.
spies8broderick: (11:06:17 PM)You were/are suspicious of Cory because he was being pushy?
spies8claude: (11:06:36 PM)among other things.
…
spies8claude: (11:09:43 PM)Cory's behavior, in my mind, is a tactic.
spies8margot: (11:09:48 PM)dammit, chance. you caught me.
spies8margot: (11:09:51 PM)you son of a bitch
spies8claude: (11:09:53 PM)And I fail to see how it can be a pro-citizen tactic.
spies8claude: (11:11:55 PM)Making fun of the person that is suspicious of you is what a spy does, not what a citizen does.
spies8cory: (10:22:16 PM)And I didn't join because I hadn't received any of the invitations
spies8claude: (10:22:17 PM)And your sheer animosity towards various people is most likely just a smokescreen to keep people from trying to get anything out of you.
…
spies8claude: (10:29:53 PM)What could you possibly hope to gain, as a citizen, by treating cinnamyn the way you were?
spies8margot: (10:29:53 PM)Cory, what the hell is going on?
spies8cory: (10:30:05 PM)Amusement.
spies8cinnamyn: (10:30:07 PM)i will ask sum. cory in ur queschins wit' mary, did u find anythin' suspishis.?
spies8cory: (10:30:20 PM)Not really. She was a bit emo.
spies8cory: (10:30:27 PM)We didn't really talk much about the game.
spies8claude: (10:30:43 PM)Amusement is not a positive motive.
…
spies8claude: (10:37:37 PM)I didn't say that you 'avoided' questions. I said that all you did was push for information
spies8jasmine: (10:37:37 PM)Mary did talk about blood before she left earlier, Bloody mary fits. =)
spies8cory: (10:37:40 PM)If you guys are so worried about me avoiding questions then go ahead and ask me something tough
spies8jasmine: (10:37:52 PM)Who do you think is a spy right now?
spies8margot: (10:37:53 PM)okay
spies8broderick: (10:38:05 PM)Are we discussing who has and hasnt avoided questions?
spies8cory: (10:38:13 PM)Hal, though I'm less sure than before since Claude cleared my primary reason for suspecting him up
spies8claude: (10:38:16 PM)And many of the tactics that you've used in this conversation so far are tactics that spies use. Trying to downplay the accusations against you, for example.
…
spies8claude: (11:03:16 PM)Acting like a giant asshole is a great way to keep people from talking to you
…
spies8claude: (11:06:03 PM)Being pushy against someone you think is a spy does not equate to being a spy
spies8claude: (11:06:17 PM)Being pushy for no reason other than the sake of doing so implies ulterior motives.
spies8broderick: (11:06:17 PM)You were/are suspicious of Cory because he was being pushy?
spies8claude: (11:06:36 PM)among other things.
…
spies8claude: (11:09:43 PM)Cory's behavior, in my mind, is a tactic.
spies8margot: (11:09:48 PM)dammit, chance. you caught me.
spies8margot: (11:09:51 PM)you son of a bitch
spies8claude: (11:09:53 PM)And I fail to see how it can be a pro-citizen tactic.
spies8claude: (11:11:55 PM)Making fun of the person that is suspicious of you is what a spy does, not what a citizen does.
and on and on. watch those bolded ones, they’re important and i’ll come back to them later.
now, later on, claude does eventually drop all suspicion of cory. on the basis of the following statement:
spies8claude (4:10:44 PM): I don't think that a Spy would have the foresight to say 'I made comment of it in my confessional'.
spies8claude (4:10:49 PM): It's a very natural though.
spies8claude (4:10:51 PM): thought.
spies8claude (4:10:58 PM): I retract my previous suspicions of you.
spies8claude (4:10:49 PM): It's a very natural though.
spies8claude (4:10:51 PM): thought.
spies8claude (4:10:58 PM): I retract my previous suspicions of you.
which is odd in and of itself. but in any case, as we’ve seen, this early ‘case’ is nothing like his later ‘cases’ on cam and me, which leads me to believe he was never serious about the cory suspicion.
point b – claude’s double standards regarding tina
during the timing debacle, claude revealed that he was suspicious of tina for bringing up her suspicions of hal re: the no-exile comment privately to cory, instead of publically. apparently, he said this to brod in response to a comment by brod. claude points to this comment in order to say that he was suspicious of tina before i brought up the timing thing. the double standard here is this -
spies8claude (4:14:27 PM): I think it was suspicious that A)she brought it up to someone individually, and not publicly, and B)that it was Cory.
spies8claude (4:14:42 PM): And I've had this conversation before(a couple of days ago), with Broderick
spies8claude (4:14:42 PM): And I've had this conversation before(a couple of days ago), with Broderick
if claude is suspicious of tina for not bringing up her suspicions of hal publically, why then did he not bring his suspicions of tina up publically?
answer:
spies8chance (4:53:50 PM): what exactly did brod say to you, claude?
spies8chance (4:55:15 PM): you don't have to quote, obviously.
spies8claude (4:56:13 PM): He thought it was suspicious that Tina was trying to run Awohlia up for such a minor comment(he researched it a bunch, and could only find one thing that Awohlia said no the subject)
spies8claude (4:56:28 PM): I agreed, and thought it was also noteworthy that she didn't bring it up publicly, but did so privately.
spies8chance (4:56:59 PM): okay, but my point remains - why didn't you, then, bring it up publically?
spies8claude (4:58:04 PM): I didn't find it to be a big enough deal to bring it up.
spies8claude (4:58:22 PM): It came up in conversation with you because you asked me if I had anything else I didn't like about Cory.
spies8chance (4:58:31 PM): yet you're using it today as evidence that you've been suspicious of tina for a while.
spies8claude (4:59:07 PM): I think you're misrepresenting me now.
spies8camilla (4:59:22 PM): *misinterpreting. :X
spies8claude (4:59:36 PM): No.
spies8chance (4:59:44 PM): spies8claude 3:24 pm
I think Tina and Cory are both spies, yes.
spies8chance (4:59:55 PM): spies8claude 3:26 pm
I already thought it was suspicious that Tina chose to chat privately with Cory, of all people.
spies8chance (5:00:09 PM): i don't think i'm misrepresenting you.
spies8claude (5:00:38 PM): I did think that was suspicious
spies8claude (5:00:39 PM): ...
spies8chance (5:00:48 PM): but not a big enough deal to bring up publically?
spies8chance (5:00:58 PM): even though you suspect tina for doing the same thing?
spies8claude (5:01:22 PM): Yes.
spies8chance (5:01:31 PM): okay then.
spies8chance (4:55:15 PM): you don't have to quote, obviously.
spies8claude (4:56:13 PM): He thought it was suspicious that Tina was trying to run Awohlia up for such a minor comment(he researched it a bunch, and could only find one thing that Awohlia said no the subject)
spies8claude (4:56:28 PM): I agreed, and thought it was also noteworthy that she didn't bring it up publicly, but did so privately.
spies8chance (4:56:59 PM): okay, but my point remains - why didn't you, then, bring it up publically?
spies8claude (4:58:04 PM): I didn't find it to be a big enough deal to bring it up.
spies8claude (4:58:22 PM): It came up in conversation with you because you asked me if I had anything else I didn't like about Cory.
spies8chance (4:58:31 PM): yet you're using it today as evidence that you've been suspicious of tina for a while.
spies8claude (4:59:07 PM): I think you're misrepresenting me now.
spies8camilla (4:59:22 PM): *misinterpreting. :X
spies8claude (4:59:36 PM): No.
spies8chance (4:59:44 PM): spies8claude 3:24 pm
I think Tina and Cory are both spies, yes.
spies8chance (4:59:55 PM): spies8claude 3:26 pm
I already thought it was suspicious that Tina chose to chat privately with Cory, of all people.
spies8chance (5:00:09 PM): i don't think i'm misrepresenting you.
spies8claude (5:00:38 PM): I did think that was suspicious
spies8claude (5:00:39 PM): ...
spies8chance (5:00:48 PM): but not a big enough deal to bring up publically?
spies8chance (5:00:58 PM): even though you suspect tina for doing the same thing?
spies8claude (5:01:22 PM): Yes.
spies8chance (5:01:31 PM): okay then.
the bolded part is where claude admits it. no response, just an acknowledgement.
point c – claude twists cam’s words.
claude was being questioned in the chat for a while. he goes silent for a moment as brod and i begin bickering at one another, then poses a question to cam –
spies8claude 5:58 pm
What Mary said isn't ultimately that important to me, because it only reinforced what I was already thinking.
spies8camilla 5:59 pm
It might not have necessarily been true. You have to understand that if you got caught in a lie, it would have made you even more suspicious.
spies8broderick 6:00 pm
Rather than discuss with me about my own comments, you went to people saying they were fragile points against you. That I was looking for a reason to suspect you.
If I had intended to make a case Chance, I would have. Rather than sort through a chat discussion to comment on.
spies8chance 6:01 pm
reading up.
spies8chance 6:01 pm
the bit about cory being 'pushy' has basically been clarified by this point.
spies8camilla 6:01 pm
lol h
spies8chance 6:02 pm
'pushy' was the word i used to describe how i believed mary felt about cory.
i don't think she ever actually used the word.
spies8broderick 6:02 pm
My suggestion. Dont put words into the mouths of others Chance.
spies8chance 6:03 pm
my suggestion. don't make mountains out of molehills, broderick.
spies8claude 6:03 pm
So why are you 50/50 on Cory, Camilla?
spies8camilla 6:03 pm
what if its a large molehill.
spies8broderick 6:03 pm
Im not making a mountain out of a molehill Chance
spies8chance 6:03 pm
aren't you?
i think we can all agree that cory can be kinda pushy. cory himself admitted that he's 'abrasive'. so does it really matter who said it first?
spies8broderick 6:04 pm
It is a serious issue. We are trying to hunt for spies here. But if things get muddled because people are putting words into the mouths of others. It is extremely messy and quite frustrating to sort through
spies8claude 6:04 pm
See, I told you Broderick is a citizen
spies8camilla 6:04 pm
I'm 50/50 on Cory because he tends to hoard for info and not give any out, that and he can be kind of pushy. I'm not agreeing that the whole abrasiveness thing can be a factor, but something about him seems off.
spies8chance 6:05 pm
and as i said, it's been sorted through.
What Mary said isn't ultimately that important to me, because it only reinforced what I was already thinking.
spies8camilla 5:59 pm
It might not have necessarily been true. You have to understand that if you got caught in a lie, it would have made you even more suspicious.
spies8broderick 6:00 pm
Rather than discuss with me about my own comments, you went to people saying they were fragile points against you. That I was looking for a reason to suspect you.
If I had intended to make a case Chance, I would have. Rather than sort through a chat discussion to comment on.
spies8chance 6:01 pm
reading up.
spies8chance 6:01 pm
the bit about cory being 'pushy' has basically been clarified by this point.
spies8camilla 6:01 pm
lol h
spies8chance 6:02 pm
'pushy' was the word i used to describe how i believed mary felt about cory.
i don't think she ever actually used the word.
spies8broderick 6:02 pm
My suggestion. Dont put words into the mouths of others Chance.
spies8chance 6:03 pm
my suggestion. don't make mountains out of molehills, broderick.
spies8claude 6:03 pm
So why are you 50/50 on Cory, Camilla?
spies8camilla 6:03 pm
what if its a large molehill.
spies8broderick 6:03 pm
Im not making a mountain out of a molehill Chance
spies8chance 6:03 pm
aren't you?
i think we can all agree that cory can be kinda pushy. cory himself admitted that he's 'abrasive'. so does it really matter who said it first?
spies8broderick 6:04 pm
It is a serious issue. We are trying to hunt for spies here. But if things get muddled because people are putting words into the mouths of others. It is extremely messy and quite frustrating to sort through
spies8claude 6:04 pm
See, I told you Broderick is a citizen
spies8camilla 6:04 pm
I'm 50/50 on Cory because he tends to hoard for info and not give any out, that and he can be kind of pushy. I'm not agreeing that the whole abrasiveness thing can be a factor, but something about him seems off.
spies8chance 6:05 pm
and as i said, it's been sorted through.
of note is that my last comment (at 6:05) is pretty clearly a dismissal of the subject at hand. sensing that discussion is about to come back to him, claude quickly takes control of the conversation –
spies8claude 6:05 pm
I'm curious, Camilla, about these two statements of yours:
spies8chance 6:05 pm
see? cam agrees.
spies8claude 6:05 pm
spies8claude: (10:09:34 PM)I would generally vote someone that I don't think is a spy before voting no exile
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
and
*spies8chance: (10:09:50 PM)in my book, getting rid of someone who may not be a spy, but is unhelpful/not participating is almost as good as getting rid of a spy. especially early on.
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8broderick 6:07 pm
My suggestion still stands. Let people speak for themselves, and refrain from putting words into the mouths of others. I know you agree with the words in the mouths of others Chance, since you told Jasmine she was putting words into yours not that long ago.
spies8camilla 6:07 pm
Those two statements actually compliment each other. I'm saying that you should lynch someone. I'm saying No Lynch is a waste in BOTH. Like I said, there are other alternatives than N/L
spies8chance 6:07 pm
example - lynch someone who's not participating/helping.
spies8claude 6:07 pm
I agree that they are somewhat similar, in sentiment.
spies8camilla 6:07 pm
If it means lynching a cit that is little to no help to you, then lynch them. in every single mafia game, the ghosts are always exiled first.
spies8claude 6:08 pm
But it's strange that you disagree with one, but agree with the other.
spies8broderick 6:08 pm
Not quite Camilla.
spies8chance 6:08 pm
she doesn't disagree at all.
…
spies8broderick 6:08 pm
Quite often the nonactives get ignored until later
spies8chance 6:08 pm
"if you think a person is a spy, why vote for them"
…
spies8camilla 6:08 pm
I disagree with no lynch, and agree with lynching a lurker that doesnt help at all. Those two are actually very unrelated.
…
spies8chance 6:09 pm
'if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them'
spies8chance 6:09 pm
with unhelpfuls/lurkers, it's often extremely hard to know anything about them one way or the other.
spies8claude 6:10 pm
Why are you answering for Camilla
spies8chance 6:10 pm
i'm not. i'm saying i agree with her.
also claude is putting words in her mouth and i like camilla.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
No, I'm not putting words in her mouth.
…
spies8camilla 6:11 pm
You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
lol
spies8chance 6:11 pm
you kind of are.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Really?
spies8mary 6:11 pm
What did Claude say?
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Not really.
We weren't even talking about me before.
We were talking about Cory.
spies8chance 6:11 pm
spies8claude 6:08 pm
But it's strange that you disagree with one, but agree with the other.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Here, let's read again:
…
spies8claude 6:12 pm
spies8claude: (10:09:34 PM)I would generally vote someone that I don't think is a spy before voting no exile
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
Here, Camilla says that you shouldn't vote for someone that you think is a citizen. That's perfectly understandable.
*spies8chance: (10:09:50 PM)in my book, getting rid of someone who may not be a spy, but is unhelpful/not participating is almost as good as getting rid of a spy. especially early on.
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8camilla 6:12 pm
Who you have been directly suspecting since day one. and with all due respect, you have been on the chopping block since i came in. you have been discussing everything, when cory was in, you were trying to deflect suspicion onto him, now its me.
spies8claude 6:13 pm
I can't be trying to 'deflect' suspicion onto Cory if I've been suspicious of him since Day 1.
spies8claude 6:13 pm
And whether or not *I* am suspicious of Cory has no bearing on my asking you why YOU are suspicious of him.
spies8isaac 6:14 pm
LOL, thats kinda true you have had it out for Cory. But it does seem somewhate that you are focusing all on Cam at the m oment. I haven't really even had a chance to chat with you yet Cam...lol
spies8camilla 6:14 pm
Okay one, I disagree with lynching someone who is clearly not a spy. I do agree with lynching someone that is entirely unhelpful and is feckless in the long run, regardless of alignment.
spies8claude 6:14 pm
I said that I'd vote for someone that I 'don't think is a spy' instead of voting No Exile
…
spies8claude 6:15 pm
Chance said that he would vote for someone that 'might not be a spy' if they're b eing unhelpful.
spies8broderick 6:15 pm
Clearly not a spy, and don't think a spy. Not the same thing
spies8claude 6:15 pm
These are very similar sentiments(I believe that you even said this a couple of minutes ago), but you responded to them very differently.
spies8claude 6:16 pm
Why?
spies8camilla 6:16 pm
you're really gonna make a case against me on how I worded things.
spies8claude 6:16 pm
Yes.
It doesn't help that you have really started flailing since I started asking questions, but yes, I will absolutely make a case on you based on these things.
It's not really 'how you worded things'. It's more that it looks like you were just trying to play up to citizens by saying 'you should never vote for someone you don't believe is a spy'
spies8camilla 6:18 pm
To be honest, that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I know clearly not a spy and may not be a spy are two different things. But if you're going to make a case against me, please use actual evidence.
And I'm not flailing. I'm calmly answering your questions. h
spies8claude 6:18 pm
And then woefully contradicted yourself in the next line by agreeing with a statement that was, in effect, the same as what you just disagreed with
spies8camilla 6:18 pm
If "playing up to the cits" is expressing your opinion, then yes. I was absolutely playing up to the cits.
spies8chance 6:18 pm
funny. i don't recall her saying that at all.
spies8claude 6:19 pm
You don't recall her saying what?
spies8chance 6:19 pm
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
camilla, what 'alternatives' were you speaking of here?
spies8broderick 6:20 pm
Claude, you of all people should not be using contradictions as a point against another
spies8camilla 6:20 pm
Exiling someone who is little to no help.
spies8chance 6:20 pm
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8claude 6:20 pm
I'm asking her to explain them.
spies8chance 6:20 pm
camilla, who were you referring to here?
spies8chance 6:20 pm
a person who isn't going to help you at all?
spies8gertrude has entered the room. 6:20 pm
spies8claude 6:20 pm
Why are you coaching her, Chance?
…
spies8camilla 6:20 pm
He isn't coaching me.
spies8claude 6:20 pm
Yes, he is.
..
spies8chance 6:21 pm
no, i'm not.
i'm simply showing how you're twisting her words, is all.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
He's asking me questions. Which are in fact, very similar to yours
…
spies8claude 6:21 pm
I posted her words for everyone to see
I can't be 'twisting' them.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
I also posted my words for everyone to see.
spies8chance 6:21 pm
and then twisted them out of context entirely with your interpretation of them.
spies8claude 6:21 pm
I asked her to explain them.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
interpret them how you like.
spies8claude 6:21 pm
Which she still has yet to do.
How about this.
spies8claude 6:22 pm
After the way that she immediately(and improperly) accused me of 'deflecting' onto her(and even more ridiculously, onto Cory) after I started asking her questions, I will stake my life on Camilla being a Spy.
…
spies8camilla 6:22 pm
How would you like me to answer them? I have answered them, you just choose to ignore my answers and tell me I'm contradicting yourself. Isn't contradicting yourself your area of expretise?
…
spies8claude 6:23 pm
Isn't contradicting yourself your area of expretise?
That statement is pure, 100% OMGUS.
boo my text color changed.
spies8camilla 6:24 pm
You are the one who has contradicted himself already.
spies8chance 6:24 pm
camilla's two statements both refer to the same thing - lurkers/unhelpfuls.
i'm not certain how you're not seeing that, claude.
spies8claude 6:24 pm
I DO see that.
…
spies8claude 6:25 pm
And then in the absolute next sentence, she says 'Yeahi t's okay to lynch that guy'
I'm curious, Camilla, about these two statements of yours:
spies8chance 6:05 pm
see? cam agrees.
spies8claude 6:05 pm
spies8claude: (10:09:34 PM)I would generally vote someone that I don't think is a spy before voting no exile
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
and
*spies8chance: (10:09:50 PM)in my book, getting rid of someone who may not be a spy, but is unhelpful/not participating is almost as good as getting rid of a spy. especially early on.
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8broderick 6:07 pm
My suggestion still stands. Let people speak for themselves, and refrain from putting words into the mouths of others. I know you agree with the words in the mouths of others Chance, since you told Jasmine she was putting words into yours not that long ago.
spies8camilla 6:07 pm
Those two statements actually compliment each other. I'm saying that you should lynch someone. I'm saying No Lynch is a waste in BOTH. Like I said, there are other alternatives than N/L
spies8chance 6:07 pm
example - lynch someone who's not participating/helping.
spies8claude 6:07 pm
I agree that they are somewhat similar, in sentiment.
spies8camilla 6:07 pm
If it means lynching a cit that is little to no help to you, then lynch them. in every single mafia game, the ghosts are always exiled first.
spies8claude 6:08 pm
But it's strange that you disagree with one, but agree with the other.
spies8broderick 6:08 pm
Not quite Camilla.
spies8chance 6:08 pm
she doesn't disagree at all.
…
spies8broderick 6:08 pm
Quite often the nonactives get ignored until later
spies8chance 6:08 pm
"if you think a person is a spy, why vote for them"
…
spies8camilla 6:08 pm
I disagree with no lynch, and agree with lynching a lurker that doesnt help at all. Those two are actually very unrelated.
…
spies8chance 6:09 pm
'if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them'
spies8chance 6:09 pm
with unhelpfuls/lurkers, it's often extremely hard to know anything about them one way or the other.
spies8claude 6:10 pm
Why are you answering for Camilla
spies8chance 6:10 pm
i'm not. i'm saying i agree with her.
also claude is putting words in her mouth and i like camilla.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
No, I'm not putting words in her mouth.
…
spies8camilla 6:11 pm
You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
lol
spies8chance 6:11 pm
you kind of are.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Really?
spies8mary 6:11 pm
What did Claude say?
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Not really.
We weren't even talking about me before.
We were talking about Cory.
spies8chance 6:11 pm
spies8claude 6:08 pm
But it's strange that you disagree with one, but agree with the other.
spies8claude 6:11 pm
Here, let's read again:
…
spies8claude 6:12 pm
spies8claude: (10:09:34 PM)I would generally vote someone that I don't think is a spy before voting no exile
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
Here, Camilla says that you shouldn't vote for someone that you think is a citizen. That's perfectly understandable.
*spies8chance: (10:09:50 PM)in my book, getting rid of someone who may not be a spy, but is unhelpful/not participating is almost as good as getting rid of a spy. especially early on.
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8camilla 6:12 pm
Who you have been directly suspecting since day one. and with all due respect, you have been on the chopping block since i came in. you have been discussing everything, when cory was in, you were trying to deflect suspicion onto him, now its me.
spies8claude 6:13 pm
I can't be trying to 'deflect' suspicion onto Cory if I've been suspicious of him since Day 1.
spies8claude 6:13 pm
And whether or not *I* am suspicious of Cory has no bearing on my asking you why YOU are suspicious of him.
spies8isaac 6:14 pm
LOL, thats kinda true you have had it out for Cory. But it does seem somewhate that you are focusing all on Cam at the m oment. I haven't really even had a chance to chat with you yet Cam...lol
spies8camilla 6:14 pm
Okay one, I disagree with lynching someone who is clearly not a spy. I do agree with lynching someone that is entirely unhelpful and is feckless in the long run, regardless of alignment.
spies8claude 6:14 pm
I said that I'd vote for someone that I 'don't think is a spy' instead of voting No Exile
…
spies8claude 6:15 pm
Chance said that he would vote for someone that 'might not be a spy' if they're b eing unhelpful.
spies8broderick 6:15 pm
Clearly not a spy, and don't think a spy. Not the same thing
spies8claude 6:15 pm
These are very similar sentiments(I believe that you even said this a couple of minutes ago), but you responded to them very differently.
spies8claude 6:16 pm
Why?
spies8camilla 6:16 pm
you're really gonna make a case against me on how I worded things.
spies8claude 6:16 pm
Yes.
It doesn't help that you have really started flailing since I started asking questions, but yes, I will absolutely make a case on you based on these things.
It's not really 'how you worded things'. It's more that it looks like you were just trying to play up to citizens by saying 'you should never vote for someone you don't believe is a spy'
spies8camilla 6:18 pm
To be honest, that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I know clearly not a spy and may not be a spy are two different things. But if you're going to make a case against me, please use actual evidence.
And I'm not flailing. I'm calmly answering your questions. h
spies8claude 6:18 pm
And then woefully contradicted yourself in the next line by agreeing with a statement that was, in effect, the same as what you just disagreed with
spies8camilla 6:18 pm
If "playing up to the cits" is expressing your opinion, then yes. I was absolutely playing up to the cits.
spies8chance 6:18 pm
funny. i don't recall her saying that at all.
spies8claude 6:19 pm
You don't recall her saying what?
spies8chance 6:19 pm
I agree, No Exile is a waste, but if you don't believe the person is a spy, why vote for them? There are other alternatives.
camilla, what 'alternatives' were you speaking of here?
spies8broderick 6:20 pm
Claude, you of all people should not be using contradictions as a point against another
spies8camilla 6:20 pm
Exiling someone who is little to no help.
spies8chance 6:20 pm
This seems perfectly logical to me, if the person isn't going to help you at all, why keep them? It's not like we're in a constant state of lylo or anything. I think the 'especially early on' validates this point, and I agree. I don't think it's 'almost as good' but its better than N/L.
spies8claude 6:20 pm
I'm asking her to explain them.
spies8chance 6:20 pm
camilla, who were you referring to here?
spies8chance 6:20 pm
a person who isn't going to help you at all?
spies8gertrude has entered the room. 6:20 pm
spies8claude 6:20 pm
Why are you coaching her, Chance?
…
spies8camilla 6:20 pm
He isn't coaching me.
spies8claude 6:20 pm
Yes, he is.
..
spies8chance 6:21 pm
no, i'm not.
i'm simply showing how you're twisting her words, is all.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
He's asking me questions. Which are in fact, very similar to yours
…
spies8claude 6:21 pm
I posted her words for everyone to see
I can't be 'twisting' them.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
I also posted my words for everyone to see.
spies8chance 6:21 pm
and then twisted them out of context entirely with your interpretation of them.
spies8claude 6:21 pm
I asked her to explain them.
spies8camilla 6:21 pm
interpret them how you like.
spies8claude 6:21 pm
Which she still has yet to do.
How about this.
spies8claude 6:22 pm
After the way that she immediately(and improperly) accused me of 'deflecting' onto her(and even more ridiculously, onto Cory) after I started asking her questions, I will stake my life on Camilla being a Spy.
…
spies8camilla 6:22 pm
How would you like me to answer them? I have answered them, you just choose to ignore my answers and tell me I'm contradicting yourself. Isn't contradicting yourself your area of expretise?
…
spies8claude 6:23 pm
Isn't contradicting yourself your area of expretise?
That statement is pure, 100% OMGUS.
boo my text color changed.
spies8camilla 6:24 pm
You are the one who has contradicted himself already.
spies8chance 6:24 pm
camilla's two statements both refer to the same thing - lurkers/unhelpfuls.
i'm not certain how you're not seeing that, claude.
spies8claude 6:24 pm
I DO see that.
…
spies8claude 6:25 pm
And then in the absolute next sentence, she says 'Yeahi t's okay to lynch that guy'
this chat was extremely long to copy and paste. the bits where things have been taken out are irrelevant to the discussion, like people entering and being greeted, or making singular comments , or anything that doesn’t pertain to the discussion.
if you don’t want to read the entirety of the above chat, a recap – camilla responded to a statement made by claude and a statement made by myself. both statements regarded camilla’s stance on voting unhelpfuls/lurkers. claude tried extremely hard to make it look like camilla contradicted herself with her answers, but multiple people agreed that there was no contradiction.
point c add. – claude’s witchhunt
at this point, claude’s stance that camilla has contradicted herself has not gone over too well. however, there seems to be enough legitimate suspicion of camilla that claude begins to use the ‘witchhunt’ tactic against her.
the witchhunt tactic is one often used by baddies. in it, a baddie rapid-fire attacks an innocent, forcing them to defend themselves until they say something that can be considered baddie-like. oftentimes this tactic results in extreme frustration for the innocent on the other end of it (as indeed happened to camilla).
spies8claude 6:39 pm
Now she is A)being defeatist and B)personally attacking me.
Both of these are ALSO scumtells.
Now she is A)being defeatist and B)personally attacking me.
Both of these are ALSO scumtells.
interestingly enough, when i (and multiple others) refute a point claude tried to make against cam, he blusters on through anyway -
spies8claude 6:46 pm
Initially, when I started to question her, she accused me of deflecting to Cory.
spies8chance 6:47 pm
no, she didn't.
spies8claude 6:47 pm
Yes, she absolutely 100% did.
spies8chance 6:47 pm
the first thing she accused you of was deflecting onto her.
…
spies8claude 6:47 pm
I'm pretty sure that she tried to accuse me of deflecting onto Cory first.
spies8chance 6:48 pm
spies8camilla 6:11 pm
You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
camilla's first mention of deflection.
no, she didn't.
spies8camilla 6:48 pm
[17:11] spies8camilla: You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
spies8claude 6:48 pm
Accusing me of deflection there is a deflection in and of itself ANYWAY.
Initially, when I started to question her, she accused me of deflecting to Cory.
spies8chance 6:47 pm
no, she didn't.
spies8claude 6:47 pm
Yes, she absolutely 100% did.
spies8chance 6:47 pm
the first thing she accused you of was deflecting onto her.
…
spies8claude 6:47 pm
I'm pretty sure that she tried to accuse me of deflecting onto Cory first.
spies8chance 6:48 pm
spies8camilla 6:11 pm
You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
camilla's first mention of deflection.
no, she didn't.
spies8camilla 6:48 pm
[17:11] spies8camilla: You are making me seem shady in order to deflect suspicion on you. Stop changing tactics.
spies8claude 6:48 pm
Accusing me of deflection there is a deflection in and of itself ANYWAY.
this is partially relevant in that it indicates a pattern of behavior, but it’s also just amusing –
spies8chance 6:49 pm
the relevant point at the moment is that you accused camilla of saying that you deflected onto cory first.
she didn't.
spies8claude 6:50 pm
That point doesn't matter.
…
spies8isaac 6:51 pm
Wow, I love how you think you can make certain points important and others moot depending on what helps your case the most
the relevant point at the moment is that you accused camilla of saying that you deflected onto cory first.
she didn't.
spies8claude 6:50 pm
That point doesn't matter.
…
spies8isaac 6:51 pm
Wow, I love how you think you can make certain points important and others moot depending on what helps your case the most
point d – claude lies
here is a portion of chat where claude tries to explain his suspicion of tina again.
spies8claude (3:06:24 PM): Chance messaged me privately, and asked if I had any new reasons to be suspicious of Cory.
spies8claude (3:06:49 PM): I told him that I'd learned that Tina went to Cory in private, after alignment was announced, and talked to him about Awohlia
spies8chance (3:07:09 PM): that's not when you told me that, claude.
spies8chance (3:07:11 PM): i don't think.
spies8claude (3:07:12 PM): I found this to be suspect for a few reasons. For one, Awohlia really didn't say anything bad, and it looked like she was trying to make something out of nothing.
spies8claude (3:07:14 PM): Yes, it is.
spies8chance (3:07:39 PM): no, it's not.
spies8chance (3:07:39 PM): spies8chance (2:50:34 PM):do you have any new reasons? spies8claude (2:50:59 PM):Yesterday, someone asked him if he thought I was suspicious at all. He was very quick to say no. spies8chance (3:10:32 PM):anything else? spies8chance (3:10:36 PM):and what do you mean by 'very quick'? spies8claude (3:11:10 PM):I mean like, it didn't seem like he really had to think much about it. I dunno.
spies8claude (3:07:43 PM): Secondly, I found it odd that she would present this privately, especially to Cory. I thought that maybe they were both spies.
spies8chance (3:07:45 PM): that's the only 'new' reason you gave.
spies8claude (3:08:06 PM): It's all in that conversation, Chance.
Spies8Awohali (3:08:37 PM): What date did this conversation take place?
spies8chance (3:08:40 PM): no, it's not.
spies8chance (3:08:45 PM): i've been rereading it.
spies8chance (3:08:48 PM): tina isn't mentioned.
spies8chance (3:08:49 PM): neither is hal.
spies8chance (3:09:32 PM): claude, i can pm you this conversation - it's between us, so that's legal.
spies8claude (3:09:35 PM): Cory had explained that he offered, to Tina, to bring this up to Hal.
spies8chance (3:09:36 PM): this is the only conversation i have with you.
spies8claude (3:09:38 PM): fine, go ahead.
spies8claude (3:06:49 PM): I told him that I'd learned that Tina went to Cory in private, after alignment was announced, and talked to him about Awohlia
spies8chance (3:07:09 PM): that's not when you told me that, claude.
spies8chance (3:07:11 PM): i don't think.
spies8claude (3:07:12 PM): I found this to be suspect for a few reasons. For one, Awohlia really didn't say anything bad, and it looked like she was trying to make something out of nothing.
spies8claude (3:07:14 PM): Yes, it is.
spies8chance (3:07:39 PM): no, it's not.
spies8chance (3:07:39 PM): spies8chance (2:50:34 PM):do you have any new reasons? spies8claude (2:50:59 PM):Yesterday, someone asked him if he thought I was suspicious at all. He was very quick to say no. spies8chance (3:10:32 PM):anything else? spies8chance (3:10:36 PM):and what do you mean by 'very quick'? spies8claude (3:11:10 PM):I mean like, it didn't seem like he really had to think much about it. I dunno.
spies8claude (3:07:43 PM): Secondly, I found it odd that she would present this privately, especially to Cory. I thought that maybe they were both spies.
spies8chance (3:07:45 PM): that's the only 'new' reason you gave.
spies8claude (3:08:06 PM): It's all in that conversation, Chance.
Spies8Awohali (3:08:37 PM): What date did this conversation take place?
spies8chance (3:08:40 PM): no, it's not.
spies8chance (3:08:45 PM): i've been rereading it.
spies8chance (3:08:48 PM): tina isn't mentioned.
spies8chance (3:08:49 PM): neither is hal.
spies8chance (3:09:32 PM): claude, i can pm you this conversation - it's between us, so that's legal.
spies8claude (3:09:35 PM): Cory had explained that he offered, to Tina, to bring this up to Hal.
spies8chance (3:09:36 PM): this is the only conversation i have with you.
spies8claude (3:09:38 PM): fine, go ahead.
he never responded, or even acknowledged that he was, in fact, in error here. claude never told me in a private conversation about his suspicion of tina. a minor point, but goes to character.
point e – claude twists my words, or tries to
spies8claude (3:39:05 PM): You're really not being consistent here
spies8claude (3:39:17 PM): In one breath, you're saying that I didn't make a big enough deal out of it.
spies8chance (3:39:23 PM): no.
spies8chance (3:39:32 PM): now you're twisting my words like you twisted cam's.
spies8claude (3:39:51 PM): No
spies8claude (3:39:54 PM): I'm trying to understand.
spies8chance (3:40:12 PM): i said that you didn't think your suspicion of tina was a big deal, which is why you only mentioned it to brod instead of bringing it up publically.
spies8claude (3:40:19 PM): Okay.
spies8chance (3:40:24 PM): this was before the timing debacle.
spies8claude (3:40:27 PM): Right.
spies8claude (3:41:01 PM): I barely even mentioned it to Broderick. He said that he thought it was suspicious that Tina was trying to make a big case out of Awohlia's 'No Exile' bit.
spies8chance (3:41:11 PM): right.
spies8claude (3:41:14 PM): I said that I thought it was also suspicious that she only brought it up to Cory, and not publicly.
spies8chance (3:41:32 PM): so, again, to go from 'not a big deal' to 'tina's a spy'...
spies8claude (3:41:37 PM): Right
spies8claude (3:41:51 PM): I went to 'Tina is a Spy' when YOU said that she was talking to Cory after teams were announced.
spies8claude (3:39:17 PM): In one breath, you're saying that I didn't make a big enough deal out of it.
spies8chance (3:39:23 PM): no.
spies8chance (3:39:32 PM): now you're twisting my words like you twisted cam's.
spies8claude (3:39:51 PM): No
spies8claude (3:39:54 PM): I'm trying to understand.
spies8chance (3:40:12 PM): i said that you didn't think your suspicion of tina was a big deal, which is why you only mentioned it to brod instead of bringing it up publically.
spies8claude (3:40:19 PM): Okay.
spies8chance (3:40:24 PM): this was before the timing debacle.
spies8claude (3:40:27 PM): Right.
spies8claude (3:41:01 PM): I barely even mentioned it to Broderick. He said that he thought it was suspicious that Tina was trying to make a big case out of Awohlia's 'No Exile' bit.
spies8chance (3:41:11 PM): right.
spies8claude (3:41:14 PM): I said that I thought it was also suspicious that she only brought it up to Cory, and not publicly.
spies8chance (3:41:32 PM): so, again, to go from 'not a big deal' to 'tina's a spy'...
spies8claude (3:41:37 PM): Right
spies8claude (3:41:51 PM): I went to 'Tina is a Spy' when YOU said that she was talking to Cory after teams were announced.
true. however, this is what claude actually said -
spies8claude (3:24:26 PM): I think Tina and Cory are both spies, yes.
now, to me, the tone in which this is stated implies that claude believed tina and cory to be spies for a time previous to me bringing up the timing issue. which still begs the question – why does claude think tina is a spy if his suspicion of her ‘wasn’t a big deal’?
and another example of claude trying to twist my words –
spies8claude (3:55:24 PM): I honestly thought that I said that to you in private conversation. I must have said something about it to you, because you've been making a big deal out of me bringing up Tina privately to you.
spies8chance (3:55:27 PM): spies8claude 2:48 pm
Nice potshot there. What have I not answered?
spies8chance (3:55:55 PM): claude - no. i haven't. i've been making a big deal about you bringing up tina privately to brod.
spies8chance (3:55:27 PM): spies8claude 2:48 pm
Nice potshot there. What have I not answered?
spies8chance (3:55:55 PM): claude - no. i haven't. i've been making a big deal about you bringing up tina privately to brod.
point f – claude saves his attacks on me for when i’m out of the chatroom
now, if i’m being petty here, someone please tell me, because i don’t mean to be. but here’s one example –
spies8claude (4:03:03 PM): I have to go AFK a few minutes while you do that, I'll address it when I get back.
spies8chance (4:04:18 PM): posted.
spies8claude (4:05:43 PM): back for a bit
spies8chance (4:06:40 PM): i really need a nap, guys, i'm exhausted.
spies8chance (4:07:01 PM): could you answer this real fast, claude?
spies8chance (4:08:55 PM): alright, i guess not.
spies8chance (4:09:07 PM): well, i'll be back before exile, so hopefully i can hear it then.
spies8chance (4:09:09 PM): later guys.
spies8cory (4:09:12 PM): Later.
spies8cory (4:09:21 PM): Not really seeing Chance's point. Lol.
spies8claude (4:09:26 PM): He doesn't have one.
Spies8Awohali (4:09:31 PM): Nor am I...
spies8claude (4:09:43 PM): He just used this as a distraction to avoid answering Awohali's point, and my follow up.
spies8claude (4:09:51 PM): I wanted to humor him so that I could make him address those.
spies8chance (4:04:18 PM): posted.
spies8claude (4:05:43 PM): back for a bit
spies8chance (4:06:40 PM): i really need a nap, guys, i'm exhausted.
spies8chance (4:07:01 PM): could you answer this real fast, claude?
spies8chance (4:08:55 PM): alright, i guess not.
spies8chance (4:09:07 PM): well, i'll be back before exile, so hopefully i can hear it then.
spies8chance (4:09:09 PM): later guys.
spies8cory (4:09:12 PM): Later.
spies8cory (4:09:21 PM): Not really seeing Chance's point. Lol.
spies8claude (4:09:26 PM): He doesn't have one.
Spies8Awohali (4:09:31 PM): Nor am I...
spies8claude (4:09:43 PM): He just used this as a distraction to avoid answering Awohali's point, and my follow up.
spies8claude (4:09:51 PM): I wanted to humor him so that I could make him address those.
am I supposed to believe it’s a coincidence that, after being afk enough to not answer my question, claude comes back into the chat less than thirty seconds after i leave in order to put what i’ve been doing in a bad light?
point g – more double-standards
this is where the bolded comments from earlier come into play. remember that earlier, claude said that downplaying suspicions is a spyish trait. well, it seems to me, downplaying accusations and making fun of the person who is suspicious of you is exactly what claude has been doing re: me since after cam’s exile. also, this -
spies8claude (16:55:57): That is 'panicked scum trying to geto uto f the spotlight by making their attacker look bad'
hasn’t claude been doing exactly that?
